Humanist Socialist Thought

[Kees]

Moved some of the chat here, since it’s on topic for this thread.

Originally sent in Lounge

miculpionier

Socialism also includes non-market systems, which is why we should be neutral to it.

A Global RBE is the best system possible, in theory, HS on a national scale (another form of RBE) is second-best, and can be used as a stepping stone to global RBE, after we used eco-isms as stepping stones.

Kees

Which kind of socialism doesn't use the market system? Are you referring to your own RBE with socialism mix?

Because then we circle back to that point I made a few times. What does it add? Eco isms already form a stepping stone towards an RBE which is agnostic towards any ism flavor. Because it's mostly driven by automation localization digital_feedback open-source and strategic_access

[miculpionier]

Here is the chat continuation:

Originally sent in Lounge

miculpionier

Socialism 101 does not recognize socialism with markets and money as true socialism.

Kees

But regular socialism does, right? How do they make economic decisions? If not for the market system?

miculpionier

Regular "moderate" socialism does recognize money and markets. In today's true socialism, it is commonly believed that economic decisions should mostly done by the people democratically, and the addition of computers is theoretically valid.

Kees

But in socialism it's mostly the state making the market decisions, right?

miculpionier

Some forms of socialism do not rely on the state to make decisions, and do not rely on markets either. Resources are distributed to each according to their needs, and the people own the means of production and the resources are shared.

Kees

But how are those determined? Supply and demand? Because that's the market mechanism

People owning the production, isn't that communism?

Anyway I've spent quite some time on these discussions already. I'm taking a break, since we're in this loop. Where we end up talking about an RBE. So why don't you just focus on the RBE model and the improvement and promotion of that? ;p

miculpionier

The people owning the means of production is not communism. Communism happens when the people own the means of production and you don't have money, classes or a state.

In ideal system, needs are determined by what is called a demand-driven allocation, meaning that you can't just ask for a phone every time it releases for example. You really need a new phone to be given a new phone. If you need food, you are given the exact quantity of food you need at the highest quality possible, not more or less.

Kees

But who determines what is given and what is not? It sounds like something that can be abused.

miculpionier

An RBE also relies on a demand-driven allocation system.

From HS Thought: "Replacing monetary transactions and market forces, a RBE implements a demand-driven allocation system. This mechanism guarantees equitable access to essential resources for leading a comfortable lifestyle. An international network of interlinked computers governs this process, accurately tracking, managing, and coordinating the generation and dissemination of commodities and services based on genuine requirements."

For this demand-driven system to not be abused people need education. They need to be told to consume only what is need. For example, most of the time, you should order food only when you are hungry, but we should not tell that explicitly, we need to replace consumerist values with more resourceful ones.

Kees

It's more systemically defined than that. If you want 15 iPhones, then here you go. But it will be something that will be checked. Why do you need so many? Then a systemic solution will be provided so you can do what you need to do, with less. Just an example. But it's not the same as existing isms.

miculpionier

For this demand-driven allocation system to work, every resource needs be checked. Also, our production systems need to be more efficient, via strategies like localization.

Kees

I'm still puzzled why you want to focus so much on socialism Eco isms do already pretty well. Next step is working towards integration and efficiency, which may lead to an RBE.

What you describe with resource management is an RBE that's not something from socialism I know you created your own flavor, but that's not mainstream socialism and it's basically just an RBE model

miculpionier

Socialism, technically, can help achieve our goals. And resource-management is just one way of managing a socialist or communist society, at its core there must be an economic democracy. And my model is an RBE + some additional guiding values and flexibility.

Kees

But what does it solve exactly? What's the reason for an RBE-lite? In contrast to Eco isms, which already exist and evolve

miculpionier

An RBE-lite can be used to achieve RBE via a transition period dedicated to implementing an RBE, instead of a generic eco-ism or social democracy that may not be enough.

Kees

I get that, but how does it do better than Eco isms already do? And doesn't an extra transition complicate things?

miculpionier

It may complicate things, but it may also give a clearer and more radical direction.

Kees

But how? Sorry for asking these direct questions it's just that these details are not clear. The why and how. Aren't the sustainability goals set by the UN and EU already setting that stage?

miculpionier

We need radical systematic changes, not just sustainability goals. It's not possible to achieve long-term sustainability or equity within a capitalist system, and those goals may only be satisfied in the short term under the current system.

Kees

True, but isn't this as fast as global change can go? It does lay the groundwork to transition to an RBE. Another major system change will not make things easier. Eco isms happen already, organically and agnostic to any ism. Which is the ideal transition, because you can just talk about true system change.

[miculpionier]

Note: In general, it is not very clear what communism refers to. But here is the definition of the reference to communism I am using (which is the technical, general definition of anarcho-communism):

Classless, moneyless and stateless society where the means of production are collectively owned, resources are distributed based on need, and where mutual cooperation is enforced.