Discussion on Permaculture

[Sakirtep]

Posting the initial Discord thread by Der Link below for more in depth conversation and so that this doesnt get buried on Discord

I agree and do not agree personally with his statement. Firstly, Peter is speaking on his own behalf, from his structuralist point of view and does not need to be agreed by those within TZM. That being said, I would highly recommend to those with any land to explore the possibilities, to develop a better understanding of where the things arriving on your table come from and have a different relationship to food in general. This current age of civilisation we live in appears to be extremely ignorant and incapable of understaupnding the process of where nourishment comes from - something that our ancestors seemed to have a very keen understanding of for a great majority of the history of homo-sapiens. That is not to say that they always had the healthiest diets, but they at least understood how to cultivate food, whether that being in the time of hunter-gather times or the more recent agricultural revolution. There was a strong spiritual connection or hence just a basic understanding.

The argument is that people have become so insanely disconnected of how food is produced that there is no gratitude, no honour and no shame with how it is consumed or hence produced. This could also be a very critical point made by vegans as well for those not understanding how meat and dairy products are created for the masses.

Now where I agree with Peter is exactly what he stated, that not everybody has land to exercise permaculture or starting their own farms. It is also a lot of work and ordinary people that have complex jobs or a have a day plan with much to do, kids to take care, etc - they would not even consider have the responsibility of producing their own food. It is too at odds modern culture for them. Though that is not true for everyone that they would not make time. As mentioned, some just do not have the resources to carry it out.

This is why Peter proposes vertical farming, for it is a solution that can provide for the masses (we are living in huge populations than earlier) as well as Peter’s proposal of vertical farming is one that is automated which in turn requires much from the community to attend in theory. So this would more or less be a solution for everyone having instant access to food, lessening the some of the hard work that can be required by traditional gardening or permaculture.

The other problem is that in a country like Iceland for example, we naturally do not have suitable soil for growing things here. Also the weather is very brutal and we have very limited sunlight or the adequate temperatures for things to grow here. The Vikings also stumbled onto this problem with so “safety-net” so to say and starvation was a problem during the early period of the settlements. So permaculture would be more than challenging to cultivate here.
Vertical farming is being highly promoted in Iceland, for it would help Iceland gain strong independence from needing imports from other countries. This is already starting to happen with the production of huge greenhouses outside of Reykjavík.

Also for anyone in Iceland that would like to take on their own food production, hydroponics and aquaponics would be some of the most ideal things to look into, for they call all be done indoors for anyone that has the space. Greenhouses as mentioned are a thing - but keep in mind that you most likely will be using soil created from England, Germany or Denmark and nothing locally.

If it seems like I agree with everything Peter says, this is where I counter the part of just letting humans live like f**king tourist as Birgitta Jónsdóttir said recently during Z-Day last year. That just replacing the current means for people to be mindless consumers all the time, even if it is mechanised, is not a winning solution in my book. People show grow better empathy and compassion for how they nourish themselves. Though some may say it does not matter. Whatever fills their bellys.

[Sakirtep]

I agree with you on the first point, we shouldnt auto-agree with everything he says, in fact we should be challenging what he says and see if its sound, if it is, then we adopt it, if not then inform him and open a dialog regarding that. I find that, Peter has in the past spoken out about things, regarding desalination or power generation that I found to be somewhat dated or just overly optimistic. Then there is his oppinions about 9/11 that he reluctantly reveals from time to time. Outcome of that event, be it as it may, I disagree with him on the orchestration. It is a shady bussiness, but physics and science is against it being controlled demolitions as je at one time believed, I don’t know if he does anymore, it doesn’t matter.

I agree aswell that people should have a connection to their food, unlike now where majority is shipped around the globe.

Food should be local and everyone should be taught in how its grown, would be a lot more usefull than droning for a bachelors in business or tourism.

Vertical farms do sound like a good idea and I would agree on that point aswell as that it should be automated to minimize the need for human labour, we would eliminate wastefullness to some degree and regain a connection to something we lost, not because we must, but because we want to.

Regarding Iceland, I dont know how it would work with hydroponics there, but given that you have a lot of geothermal capacity, keeping a stable water temp shouldnt be too much of an issue. The sunlight issue could be solved by LEDs.
Will need to look into that about the greenhouses, sounds very interesting.

I disagree in the tourist analogy. If people would be trained in how the systems and grow methods work and they are taught about efficiency and responsibilities around that, even if they did not actively participate in the production of food, would be more like astronauts, who are trained in all the systems so they can repair them, but didnt neccesarily build them, rather than tourists that consume for their own amusement.
Thats my two cents on the matter.

[Serf]

Thanks for setting up the topic of Permaculture. I would like to attempt a summary: there is no one size fits all solution moving towards post-scarcity food production. It should be an integrated system balancing the equation based on sustainable forms of food production. Permaculture would be a great way of producing food since it develops whole ecosystems creating benefits far beyond food production itself - yet the output of food in pure quantity is less than a vertical farm, especially compared to the amount of surface needed. This is why vertical farms in city areas and in an attempt to localize as much as possible would be a good option. In short: permaculture where applicable & vertical farms where applicable in order to move towards postscarcity food production. (Let me know if I am missing something).

[Sakirtep]

I agree, in principle, that there is no 1 size fits all, but with the different ponics, its close to being that. I am yet to think of a place or scenarion where ponics couldn’t be utilized.

Given the amount of effort and resources to cultivate and maintain a permaculture that is required, I would advise against its use with the exception in the form of a greening the desert project, such as one that is ongoing in Jordan with the initiative of Geoff Lawton.

It would be interesting to organize some form of tool library style adaptation to an urban greenhouse. Maybe anyone that comes to work and help out there, gets some produce out of it or some such.